Bernadette Cooper & Gerry Brown [Artist & Engineer]

Bernadette Cooper rose to fame in the 80’s as the founder and frontwoman of Klymaxx, the girl group best known for their album, “Meeting In The Ladies Room“. She also founded Madame X, another female outfit that scored a hit in 1987 with “Just That Kind Of Girl“. As a result of my chat with Corney Mims, Bernadette and I came into a contact and set up an interview that would include her longtime engineer, Gerry Brown, whose 40+ year resume covers everything from The Gap Band and Ronnie Laws to Alicia Keys, The Roots and Raphael Saadiq. A few weeks later we jumped on a call to talk about Bernadette’s and Gerry’s history, their thoughts on the music industry, and their current work on a new music project that’s titled “How To Survive A Midlife Crisis”.

– Hi guys. Thanks for taking time to speak with me about your careers. Bernadette, you started off by playing drums in church alongside your brother, correct?

Bernadette: Yes, I did. My brother was a bass player whilst I was a drummer. The church we attended had a 100-voice choir that would compete with other choirs around town, and we used to win a lot of those because the drummer would get a slot for a solo, which gave me a chance to showcase my abilities. That was how I fell in love with being in a band. I was actually on my way to being a lawyer, but due to those experiences, I realized that music was my purpose and I focused on that instead.

– What was your first break as a professional musician?

Bernadette: When I got my first record deal. I’d assembled an all-girl band by putting ads in the newspaper and auditioned several applicants. Once I found the girls, we’d constantly rehearse our music and later sent a demo tape to SOLAR Records, which led to us being signed by the label head, Dick Griffey. We’d played shows at small clubs here and there, but I wouldn’t call that “professional” work per se. The record deal changed all of that.

– What about you Gerry? I’ve heard that you got your start in the late 70s at ABC Studios.

Gerry: Yes, that’s right. After graduating from one of the first audio engineering schools in LA, I started my career in the tape library at ABC Studios. There wasn’t a flood of audio engineers in LA back then, and certainly not a lot of black engineers, so I was very fortunate to be able to train under some of the best, like Al Schmitt and Roger Nichols. One of the black engineers I worked under was Barney Perkins and another was Reggie Dozier, the brother of Lamont Dozier from Holland–Dozier–Holland. So I was there for two years and it was a great learning environment, especially since I was focused on improving. You need tunnel vision to work in the music business, which is partly why I gravitated towards Bernadette – she has that too. In fact, I would occasionally go to the same church where Bernadette played as a drummer, though I didn’t know her at the time. I was raised Catholic, and the choirs in those days were humongous in LA, so we both came from that tradition of music and it informed a lot of our sensibilities.

– Can you talk about the engineering school bit? ABC Studios was connected to a school?

Gerry: Yes it was. The guy who ran ABC Studios, Brian Ingoldsby, also ran one of the first audio engineering schools called Sound Master Recording School (later rebranded as Pinnacle College). Prior to me enrolling there, my high school teacher would let me practice recording at his garage studio. He later told me to attend engineering school, but since my parents weren’t wealthy, I had to pay for it myself by working on the side. I would record all my lessons on a tape recorder so I could play them back later, and I was later offered a position at ABC by being the top student in the class.

– ABC Studios shut down in 1979 but later reopened under different incarnations like Scott Sunstorm Studios, then Concorde Recording Center, and finally as Lionshare in 1981. Did you work at any of those later versions of the studio?

Gerry: You really know your history (laughs). After ABC shut down, I went to work for Total Experience Studios, where The Gap Band was. My first Gold record at Total Experience was “Oops Upside Your Head“. The official version was a rough mix I did which they couldn’t match with their other engineer, so they released it as it was. After being there for a year, I went to work for the different ABC incarnations that you mentioned, although I continued doing sessions for The Gap Band. I left Total Experience for Concorde Recording Studios because they offered me an additional $10/hour, but I left soon after Concorde was bought by Kenny Rogers and became Lionshare. ABC and Concorde had always been supportive of black artists but Lionshare started pushing all the black acts out, which I didn’t like. So I left.

– Were you at Lionshare for the recording of “We Are The World” ?

Gerry: No, I had left by that time, and later got picked up by Ed Eckstine at Wing Records to work with their artists, which led to a lot of recordings with the likes of Tony Toni Toné, Vanessa Williams and Brian McKnight.

– How exactly did you end up at Total Experience Studios? I believe Lonnie Simmons owned the place.

Gerry: I was out of work at the time and was searching for a job at a new studio. I ended up getting an interview with Lonnie’s wife, Melanie. Back in those days, I would get hired by telling people that I was a workaholic, which is what they wanted to hear. They would usually hire me on the spot once I said that, and that’s how I got the job at Total Experience. My first gig was to handle the editing on The Gap Band’s “Shake” and “Open Up Your Mind“, which was a bit nerve-wracking.

– Bernadette, what led to you getting signed to SOLAR Records? Could you also talk about the relevance of Dick Griffey in providing that opportunity?

Bernadette: Klymaxx started off as a group that rehearsed everyday, had to save up money for most things and kissed up to studio owners to get more studio time. So we struggled a lot in the beginning, especially before Joyce Irby joined the group. The lineup consisted of myself, Cheryl Cooley, Lorena Shelby, Robbin Grider, Lynn Malsby and later Joyce. We’d sent out a lot of demo tapes before Cheryl finally sent one to Dick Griffey at SOLAR, and he personally came to watch our rehearsal after hearing it. To be honest, we didn’t sound that good – both our gear and the PA system were so cheap. But he saw the vision of what we could be and decided to sign us,which we couldn’t believe. So if it wasn’t for Dick Griffey I wouldn’t be in this business, and I always thank him for that.

As everyone knows, the music industry is run by men, and it takes a particular kind of man to see the creativity in a woman. Mr Griffey saw that in me and provided every possible opportunity for me to be a star. He’s the one who told me I was a producer. Even when I replied, “No, I’m not! “, he still gave me money to go produce music. I remember standing in the bathroom and crying because I was so afraid of giving someone else directions for how I wanted the song to go. Mr Griffey had sent me to Tennessee to work with my first artist called Cat Miller, and when the studio engineer saw I was a girl, he just laughed at me. He continued to laugh every time I asked him to do something. But his opinion of me changed by the end of the session, and we later became good friends.

– What was the industry response to SOLAR’s releases? Was the label taken seriously, or was there pushback against Dick Griffey because of his success? 

Bernadette: Dick Griffey had a lot of new artists in the 80s who he believed would become groundbreaking. Granted, he also had groups like The Whispers, Shalamar and Dynasty who already had some success, but he also had new acts like Klymaxx, The Deele, Leon Sylvers and Midnight Star. So when all of those developing acts started having hits, people in the industry began taking him more seriously. Not only the new acts, but even the established ones like Shalamar continued to have hits. Additionally, L.A Reid and Babyface became a huge production duo, and even Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were bought in to work on projects like Klymaxx’s second album. So people who didn’t take Mr Griffey seriously ended up having to do so.

Gerry: Back in the 80s, there were two record companies competing for the number two spot. Motown was already on top, but right behind them was SOLAR and Total Experience Records, who had The Gap Band and Yarbrough and Peoples. SOLAR was having a lot of success in that contest, so we all did our best to compete with them, which could be tough at times.

– Bernadette, with regards to Klymaxx’s beginnings, is it true that one of the group’s early percussionists, Bonnie Thompson, helped you put the band together? 

Bernadette: It’s funny you should ask that because I’m writing a book called “A Cry No-One Heard” which is dedicated to Bonnie Thompson, the invisible force behind my career. My family had turned against me when I dropped out of college to focus on forming Klymaxx, so all I had was my idea for a girl band but no resources to make it happen. I decided to use the Yellow Pages to call record companies at a time when Bonnie was working as an A&R for a label in Watts. She picked up the phone when I called, and after hearing my idea she said, “I’m interested. Why don’t you come to the Motown building and tell me more? “. So I went down there and we clicked instantly; she thought the idea of an all-girl band was great. She didn’t consider herself to be musically talented, but she wanted to be involved in the business, so she made herself the financier of the group. She would use the money she got from dating wealthy men to pay for our rehearsal time. She also did her best to integrate herself into the group. For example, she got a Syndrum with a pair of drumsticks and was like, “I think I can play this…“, even though she had no rhythm (laughs). She eventually left the group and I continued on to find the line-up that became successful, but Bonnie and I are in touch right now and are best friends. Her story is in the book, which is part of a series that I’m releasing next year.

(Below: Cover of “A Cry No One Heard”)

– What kind of deal did Klymaxx get from SOLAR for the first album, “Never Underestimate The Power Of A Woman“?

Bernadette: Not a very good one. But we had an up-and-coming attorney called Ron Sweeney. He’s famous now for his work with hip-hop artists like Lil Wayne, but at the time he’d just graduated from law school and we were one of his first clients. He guided us through the first deal.

Gerry: Every music act pretty much got a bad deal on their first record though.

Bernadette: Exactly. That’s what he told us. He said, “This isn’t the best deal, but what other contracts do you have to choose from? You should sign this, and if you get a hit record we can renegotiate all of it “, and that’s exactly what happened.

(Below: Bernadette Copper and Ron Sweeney in the May, 1986 issue of Black Enterprise)

– Unless I’m wrong, neither the first nor the second Klymaxx album yielded any hits, correct? 

Bernadette: No, they didn’t. When we walked into our first studio session, the label already had producers in place with their own idea of what the band should sound like, so we didn’t play much of our instruments on the first album. Even the second album that we did with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis produced no hits. By the third album, Dick Griffey finally allowed us to be our own writers and producers, and we got our first hit with “The Men All Pause“. Once that happened, we renegotiated our contract and everything changed.

– Where was the first album recorded?

Bernadette: It was recorded at Studio Masters on Beverly Boulevard, where all of Dick Griffey’s acts recorded. He later built a dedicated facility for SOLAR Records which was called Galaxy Studios, but it was hard to book time there because L.A Reid, Babyface and Leon Sylvers were always in there. So we did most of our work at Studio Masters or Larrabee Studios.

If I remember correctly, Jon Gass engineered “Meeting In The Ladies Room”. He did a lot of work with Klymaxx in those days.

– Gerry, where were you when Bernadette got her record deal in 1980? At Lionshare or Total Experience Studios?

Gerry: I was at Total Experience, but I started doing sessions with SOLAR artists right after L.A. and Babyface produced “Rock Steady” for The Whispers. But my path didn’t cross with Bernadette until later.

– And how did you transition from Total Experience Studios to working at Chick Corea’s studio, Mad Hatter?

Gerry: You seem to know where all the bodies are buried (laughs). I’d been freelancing at Larrabee Studios and was at Hard Rock Cafe when I heard a song by Cameo called “She’s Strange“. Oddly enough, when I went back to the studio, the owner said, “Hey, Larry Blackmon from Cameo is coming tomorrow and needs an engineer to help with a remix “. So I ended up working on that, and later went to New York with Cameo to work on a Syreeta Wright record. By the time I came back to LA, most of my client base had moved on to other engineers, leaving me with no work. I lived around the corner from Mad Hatter studios and had already worked there with Stanley Clarke and Roy Ayers, so I walked in and said, “I usually work as a first engineer, but I don’t mind seconding to earn my spot here “. That’s how I got the job. Mad Hatter was also the place I got connected with Bernadette when I was working with Cheryl Lynn. I had done a rough mix of a track for her and she later suggested I record a different song of hers that Bernadette had produced. So we became acquainted through that.

– Gerry, once Kenny Rogers rebranded Concorde Studios as Lionshare, there was a gear overhaul at that studio. For example, a new Neve 8108 console was put in Studio A. What kind of changes occurred to the music because of adjustments like that?

Gerry: Look, some of those 8100 series Neve units just sounded cheap, and there were a lot of engineers that I respected back then who confirmed that. Mick Guzauski was one of the only people I knew that could make that console sound great. He was based out of Conway Studios at the time and worked with artists like Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men, and played a large part in creating the sound of 90s pop music. We still spend a lot of time talking about music technology and how it affects our work today, and both of us came to the conclusion that it’s more about the music than the gear. Sometimes younger artists forget that. I work with a lot of young people nowadays, and they get excited when I pull out old analog gear because of how different it sounds from what they’re used to. But I also tell the vocalists that I don’t use autotune on my sessions, and that either they can sing or they can’t. Back in the day, if a studio session had been set up for you with an engineer, producer and session musicians, you had come ready to perform, and I still have that approach today.

Bernadette: Gerry would always bring word-class musicians to the sessions, like Paulinho da Costa or The Waters. So if the supporting talent was top notch but the younger musicians couldn’t perform at the same level, they were dismissed; it was a merciless process. We’d thank the new guy for coming, erase his take the minute they left, and call someone we knew who could do the job.

– A lot of praise is given to 70s artists like Stevie Wonder or Fleetwood Mac, but those same acts were still around in the 80s, yet the sound of their music changed to reflect the times. So it seems that many of them simply did as the technology dictated. For example, Michael Jackson’s “Off The Wall” is considered to be a landmark 70s album, but “Thriller” went in the opposite direction by using synths and drum machines, and it’s widely considered the more relevant album. So did the artists even have a choice but to comply with the new technology, or was there pushback?

Bernadette: That would depend on the artist. Michael Jackson could have recorded anything he wanted to, so using drum machines and synths on “Thriller” was definitely a deliberate choice.

Gerry: Right. Most of the musicians who worked on “Off The Wall” considered it to be the better-sounding record, but I can’t be mad at “Thriller” either. The sound of those albums had less to do with technology and more about the vision of Quincy Jones, Bruce Swedien and Michael. They wanted to push the envelope and Bruce was meticulous about everything. He would even go to inspect the vinyl printing of the record to make sure it was done right, and I think the response to “Thriller” validates its quality in the eyes of the public.

Bernadette: The sound of “Thriller” was also determined by the session musicians that played on the record, which were the best in the business. Whenever Akai, Roland or Yamaha developed a new instrument, they would generally send the first units to famous artists and session players before releasing them in stores. So people like Stevie Wonder and Greg Phillinganes would have access to new sounds before everyone else, and that’s what you hear on “Thriller”.

– I understand what you mean about Michael Jackson, but we can take a different example of a less famous artist who Gerry worked with. Ronnie Laws recorded two different albums at ABC and Concorde studios: “Friends and Strangers” and “Solid Ground” respectively. Gerry recorded “Solid Ground”, but it sounds very different from “Friends and Strangers”, and the latter is generally considered to be the better album. Isn’t the influence of changing technology apparent when contrasting the two?

Gerry: I have to agree with you on that. I loved “Friends and Strangers”, and to be perfectly honest, I hated “Solid Ground”. It sounded too bright, and we rushed through the process of recording it with the newer Neve consoles. That was a case of technology hurting us. I’d also gotten to the point of being tired of recording jazz and wanted to move into other genres, and I think it reflected in the final results. I never listen to that album anymore.

– Were you involved in the making of “Friends and Strangers” ?

Gerry: No, not really. I did a few mixes of it on an API console, but nothing more. My main contribution to the Laws family discography was the Hubert Laws “Family” album, which I’m very proud to have been a part of. I worked on “Family” whilst also doing Natalie Cole’s album, after which I did Debra Laws’ “Very Special” album. I moved away from recording jazz after that, although I came back to work on a few Stanley Clarke albums, like “The Stanley Clarke Band“, which won a Grammy.

– Bernadette, how did you transition to become the vocalist of the Klymaxx when you started off as the drummer?

Bernadette: Basically, my personality outgrew the drums as the group became more successful. I played the drums when we toured, but our profile increased as the third album gained popularity, and with that came a desire to be more expressive with my personality. To be perfectly honest, I never felt that I was the best drummer, and I was more interested in being a personality than a drummer. So things naturally progressed that way.

– Gerry, what were you hearing about Klymaxx prior to meeting Bernadette? Did they pop up on your radar?

Gerry: Sure they did. I knew they were a girl group with a crazy front-woman that were having a bunch of hits (laughs). I was always a fan though. I’d go to clubs and hear their songs and I thought they sounded funky, in large part thanks to Bernadette. I also gravitated towards people who came from a church background, and when I learnt that she used to be in a choir, it gave us another reason to bond over music.

Bernadette: People like Michael Norfleet and Chuckii Booker came from the same background as us. In fact, Chuckii’s mother, Celestine Booker, used to be the choir director at our church. Even though he used to have a crush on me, I have to say Chuckii doesn’t compare to his mom as a musician, who was an amazing writer and pianist (laughs). When you come from the church, you have a very high standard of musicality, especially for vocalists, and a lot of singers today lack that. That’s why no-one makes you feel like Aretha Franklin does. Some singers have their niches, but I’ve yet to hear someone that could move your emotions like Aretha. Whitney Houston was in the same category of singer whose standards were very high.

– Do you put Beyoncé in that category?

Gerry: Not really, to be honest. She can certainly sing, but it’s different.

Bernadette: I love her as an entertainer. I wish I could produce for her though. I’d like to bring things out of her that contemporary producers don’t focus on. It’d be nice to get back to the days when one producer worked with a singer to develop a trademark sound for them; I don’t believe Beyoncé has that. She does have major hits, but it would be nice to see a real strong-woman album from her that talks about real issues, like Aretha Franklin has. Aretha will make you pull over to the side of the road in tears, whilst Beyoncé is more of an artist of the moment for the new generation. But I’m still a fan of her work.

– My understanding is that the first two Klymaxx albums didn’t chart, but how did they perform in the long run, commercially and critically?

Bernadette: They did okay, but I think long-time fans remember those albums even better than some of the band members. We were still trying to find our sound at that point and the songs were already made or halfway done when we walked into the studio. Otis Stokes from Lakeside was one of our first producers, and we didn’t really click with him because he had an opinion of what a woman should be that we didn’t agree with; we weren’t going to come home, cook his food and rub his back all night. We were independent and wanted to show that in our music. It became easier when Jimmy and Terry came in. They helped me understand that I could talk about my own vision for how a woman should be. They also gravitated towards the kind of music I wrote. I had a four-track TASCAM recorder at home that I’d make demos on, and they’d always ask to hear what I’d made when we met at the studio. They thought of me like the female Morris Day, and would often compare me to him. So Jimmy and Terry opened up the door for us to become better writers and producers, and by the third album I was able to write “The Men All Pause”. We knew we had something special with that song, even though Dick Griffey initially said, “I’m not putting out a record called “The Menopause”, and I was like, “No, you got the title wrong…” (laughs). But he eventually gave us the go-ahead and the record was even more of a success than we expected, especially since I wrote lyrics in only a few hours after Joyce presented the track to me.

Gerry: One of the differences between being an artist now and in the 80s is that Klymaxx was allowed to develop as an act. Nowadays if your record stiffs, the label drops you like a bad cheque. That’s why I applaud Dick Griffey as someone who allowed his artists to develop. Today’s A&Rs are so scared that they’re always thinking, “If I don’t get a hit, I’m fired “.

Bernadette: You couldn’t say anything negative about Dick Griffey to me. He’s the reason we made it. Some people say that he took money from them, or this or that, but the money he spent on our music career is what allowed us to make a living to this day. Mr Griffey was hands-on with us in a way that most record executives wouldn’t have been. For example, Jimmy and Terry wrote “Nasty Girl” for us, but Mr Griffey said “You’re not doing that song “, and I didn’t understand why not. Vanity 6 later ended up getting it, but looking back, I’m happy Mr Griffey stopped us. Can you imagine if we had to get on stage in our 50s and sing, “I wish I was a nasty girl ” ? So he had a vision for his artists that helped us in the long run.

Gerry: One of the funny things about Dick Griffey was how he reacted to music he didn’t like. I think it was Shalamar who brought him a tape of their new music to listen to, and if he didn’t like it, he’d destroy the tape on the spot. He didn’t want anyone else to hear it if he thought it was bad (laughs).

Bernadette: He was a good guy. He’s deceased now, but I was allowed to see him one last time when he was in the hospital. We’d developed a close relationship outside of the music industry, so his family let me thank him for my career and spend some time with him. He passed away the next day.

– With “Meeting in the Ladies Room“, Klymaxx finally got some commercial recognition. What changes occurred in your career when you sold a million albums with that one?

Bernadette: Everything changed. At that point we’d released two failed albums, so our mindset was a bit jaded and the excitement was waning. I was even wondering if I’d have to go back to college, and none of us expected the third album to be a success. It came as news to all of us during the Christmas season. Me and the girls were driving somewhere in the car when we heard on the radio , “Here’s the new hit by Klymaxx! “, and they played “The Men All Pause” – we went crazy. We pulled over the car and started dancing in the street. We had a hit by the time the label staff came back from vacation, and everything changed after that. We got so much money on our hands that we didn’t know what to do with it. We were able to get nicer cars, nicer homes, new clothes, and most importantly, we were able to tour. But whilst the band members had been equal in poverty, the money and success created divisions, which led to the break-up of the group.

– I’ve read some comments Bernadette made years ago about how the music industry has changed to the point where major labels don’t even know what they want from their artists. That made me think about some comments Frank Zappa made about the evolution of the music industry (see video below). Can you talk about the effect of staff changes at record labels, and how that had a negative impact on which projects got prioritized?

Gerry: One thing I noticed whilst working under Ed Eckstein and PolyGram for eight years is that if an assistant to someone influential within the company happened to express an opinion about a record, he was all of a sudden made Head of Publishing at another label, even though he had no experience in the business. So a lot of power was being given to guys who only wanted to chase trends. In contrast, the older cigar-chomping guys that we grew up with knew a good record when they heard it, whilst the generation that came after them didn’t. I remember when Soul II Soul blew up; I was doing a lot of remixes at the time, and label heads would say to me over and over, “Make me a Soul II Soul version of this song “. They didn’t care that the remix wouldn’t fit the artist in question. So the reality is that today’s major labels don’t have record people anymore. The current A&Rs are so scared that they don’t take any chances, and if you don’t sell a million units on your first album, they’ll drop you. So that was the biggest change I saw in terms of staff.

Bernadette: Those cigar-chomping gentlemen from back in the day knew a good record even if it was a bum on the street humming a tune. Nowadays you need at least four finished tracks before a label will even consider you. I remember when I did my solo album in 1990 – they started bringing in all these college graduates to fill positions at the label. They would tell me, “This guy just graduated from Howard University and is going to be your new point person “, and I was like “Okay, but what does he know about music? Nothing “. Then they started giving A&R positions to people from the financial department, which only made sense if the bottom-line was to make more money. It was very disturbing to me. That’s why the focus of my new project with Gerry is to create good music, and not to write hits. We’re currently working on a project called “How To Survive A Mid-Life Crisis“, which I’m producing and Gerry is executive producing, and the focus is to make real music that reflects the legacy we want to create moving forward.

Gerry: In today’s music world, it’s more about social media followings than the quality of music. The bottom-line always used to be how many people you could play to live. Most artists back in the day weren’t focused on over-producing albums because they knew that the real money was to be made on the road. I see some of that with Adele. She doesn’t have to release new music all the time because she has a successful tour life, in addition to album sales.

– Bernadette, why weren’t you a part of “The Maxx is Back” album, given the success of the previous “Meeting In The Ladies Room”?

Bernadette: Klymaxx was going through a lot of internal issues at the time and my personality had become so large that it attracted a lot of people to me. It was a situation where multiple women had worked equally hard to achieve fame, but they weren’t being paid equal amounts of attention, and it bred hostility. So I made the decision to leave the group because I felt I was being picked on. I’d already come from a background where I wasn’t supported by my family for my music decisions, so when the girls I loved started attacking me, it felt horrible. It didn’t make me into the kindest person in return either. But despite our disagreements, I still told the group, “I can move on and do other things, but I’ll stay in the band under such and such conditions “. They didn’t agree, and so I left. Even Joyce and Lynn quit the group, which only left three members to do “The Maxx is Back”. They even used one of my songs for the album, which I let them have because I’d already moved on. I’d gotten a record deal with Sylvia Rhone and was working on Madame X, so I had no animosity towards the band. If I hadn’t moved forward with my career, I wouldn’t have been able to become a successful producer. The times were changing and bands were becoming less relevant anyway. It was becoming more about boy and girl groups, and then Bell Biv Devoe burst onto the scene to change everything with New Jack Swing. So I regret nothing concerning my departure from the group.

– When we talk about girl groups with crossover appeal, people regularly throw out names like Destiny’s Child, Spice Girls, and TLC. Where do you think Klymaxx fits into that category? I don’t hear their name mentioned much, and I’m wondering if there’s any reluctance to give the group their due?

Bernadette: I’m glad you brought that up. It baffles me why we aren’t given much credit. I believe Klymaxx were trailblazers for the attitude that women in the music industry have today. It’s not widely known, but I introduced the word “diva” to the marketplace and I don’t think many women were talking about self-love the way Klymaxx did at the time. I even created the concept of designer clothes in music with lyrics like, “My Gianni Versace blue-leather suit “. So I often wonder why others, especially women, don’t give us credit for that. Ironically, more men give us credit than women do.

Gerry: I don’t think you can deny the cultural relevance Klymaxx had and still has. How many girl groups do you know that still have their music being performed on Saturday Night Live? The latest one was in April, and featured Emma Stone.

Bernadette: That was the second skit SNL has done on us after the one with Halle Berry in 2003. So Klymaxx are still known as a culturally relevant group, but it’s odd how our credit is kept under wraps. But I’m hoping that this new project, “How To Survive A Midlife Crisis”, will put the band’s name out there again on a positive note.

– To the best of your knowledge Bernadette, was there ever an agenda put in place where a certain kind of girl image started being pushed by record labels and MTV, where being shallow and oversexualized was rewarded over being articulate and talented?

Bernadette: I think that change came after us. During the Motown and SOLAR era, label heads didn’t allow women to be seen like that. They were very particular and protective of the image of their female artists. Klymaxx had success without shaking ass or showing tits, and not only were we successful as artists, but two of the women from the group went on to become famous producers, and Lynn Malsby wrote one of the biggest hits of the 80s with “I Miss You“. So I think the oversexualization agenda came out with the subsequent generation of artists.

– But Madonna had no issue with being hypersexual in her visuals as an 80s artist and the industry supported that.

Bernadette: Yes, but Madonna was in control of her own stuff, which is a different situation than a label head dictating the direction and image of a female act. It’s the same thing with Cardi B today. She’s a former stripper, so sex appeal is what she sells. I love what she’s doing, but the fact is that most girl groups were assembled and produced by men who had their own idea of what the girls should be. We’re now seeing a whole crop of girls that are running their own careers, from Cardi B and Nicki Minaj to Megan Thee Stallion. Even if their music is meant to follow the trends of today, I’m still a fan of them managing their own careers and saying what they want.

Gerry: Personally, I like what Billie Eilish is doing. Her music is aggressive without being contrived. It’s easy for new artists to have an attitude that’s not accessible to the public, but she doesn’t suffer from that. It’s also easy for new acts to suffer from a lack of identity. For example, I really can’t tell one mumble rapper from the next, but Billie Eilish does a good job of standing out as a pop act. What I don’t like is how Nicki Minaj and Cardi B continue to bash each other though.

Bernadette: I don’t understand that. Can you imagine how popular a duo of Nicki Minaj and Cardi B would be? It’s very disturbing how women can’t come together. Even when I reached out to different women to involve them in “How To Survive A Midlife Crisis”, I couldn’t get them to come together for it, especially the older ones; it’s the weirdest thing to me.

– Gerry, at what point did you start working with Raphael Saadiq? 

Gerry: I was working a lot with PolyGram and heard one of Tony Toni Toné’s songs called “Little Walter“. Ed Eckstein later told me they were trying to get away from their production team at the time, Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy. So he gave them $3000 to get out of that situation and suggested I work with them. I went into the meeting thinking they would ask me to be the producer, and blew it by giving them too many demands, but they still asked me to engineer a few of their songs. So we did “Feels Good” and “It Never Rains (In Southern California)“. After that, I remember sitting in the studio with Raphael and he said, “I really like what you do as an engineer “. So even after the group broke up, I decided to stay working with him.

Bernadette: A lot of Gerry’s success has to do with him being more than just an engineer. He can offer valuable opinions and he brings qualities to a song that even the artist doesn’t think about. Frankly, he should raise his prices because he plays the role of both producer and engineer. For example, he worked on Andra Day’s Grammy-nominated “Cheers To The Fall” album, and I was in the studio to see how he contributed more than just mixing to that.

– It’s been a while since Raphael’s last album, “Stone Rollin“, and it’s hard to predict what his next record will sound like. Is there any concern in his camp that the next album might not be as acclaimed as past ones?

Gerry: I think that if you make good music, the people will come. I’ve heard the new singles from his upcoming album and I love it because he’s still making good music. The new album took us eight years to do and it came to a point where I wondered if it would ever come out, or if he was worried about having a hit. I remember when the record company heard the album and weren’t that interested. They wanted him to make a second “The Way I See It“, even though Raphael wanted to go in a different direction. But once he let that kind of expectation go, things started flowing again. So I’ve always admired that he doesn’t chase trends or obsess over the label’s definition of commercial success, which is what real artists do.

– But when you say true artists don’t chase hits, I don’t see that in the case of Michael Jackson. He was known for being obsessed with his commercial performance, and even left Quincy Jones for people like Teddy Riley in order to secure more hits, allegedly because he felt Quincy wasn’t getting the job done.

Gerry: I was close to that situation so I can speak on it a little. Michael felt he knew better about where he wanted to go, and Quincy didn’t want to do another album with him because Michael was bringing in music that he didn’t like. Personally, I love the “Dangerous” album because of Teddy’s involvement, but “History” was different. For that album, Michael had keyboard players lining up out of the studio in his attempt to catch a new sound to sell records. He didn’t have someone like Quincy Jones to help him, who understood about arrangements and production, and I think it shows on that album.

Bernadette: At that point, Michael was just testing different things to see what would work. I think he and Quincy had a falling out because he didn’t want to give Quincy the credit he deserved. So when you’re left on your own accord, you naturally gravitate towards whoever the hottest producer is. I also think Michael was a little out of his lane, which I say respectfully. Back in the day, each aspect of a song would be handled by a specialist; you had a lead vocalist, a background vocalist, a producer, a songwriter, etc, and Michael probably realized how profitable it could be to do all of it himself.

Gerry: He was definitely out of his lane. You can’t put him in the same category as Quincy as far as being a producer. Quincy came up doing everything from Lesley Gore to Frank Sinatra. So it got to a point where Quincy and Michael didn’t feel comfortable continuing together. Most people don’t know, but Michael didn’t even want Quincy on stage with him at the Grammys when he accepted all those awards for “Thriller”. So ultimately I think he went down the wrong road with that, even though I do like the “Dangerous” album.

– Gerry, you’ve also done work with The Roots on “Illadelph Highlife“. Can you talk about that?

Gerry: Sure. I’d just finished working on the last Tony record, “House Of Music“, which we did at Brilliant Studios. By the way, I consider that to be Raphael’s first solo album because he ended up contributing most of it. I remember when the A&R guy came in to hear the album and Raphael had already done nine songs with his own band. The other two members had only done one song at the time, though they ended up with three more on the final album. Soon afterwards, Questlove called and said The Roots wanted to do a song called “What They Do“. I’d gotten tired of working at big studios at the time but I still wanted to record all the band members together, so I found an old warehouse in the Mission District of San Francisco that I filled with gear and we did the recording there over two days.

– You also worked on the “Lucy Pearl” album, correct?

Gerry: Yes. Lucy Pearl were having internal issues, so I was brought in by Raphael to work with Dawn Robinson because I had a good relationship with her. I ended up doing a few songs on that record at Larrabee Studios.

– And how did you become involved with John Legend’s projects?

Gerry: That came about through Raphael. He called and said he wanted me to mix a certain album, but wouldn’t say who it was for. So I called some friends to ask what it was about and learned that it was John Legend’s “A Legendary Christmas“. Me and John hit it off really well and he later asked me to work on his upcoming album, which is almost done; we’re recording vocals for it right now. From what I’ve heard thus far, I think it’s going to be a major success. Also, the Christmas album is getting a re-release in November with four new songs, which I mixed.

The thing I appreciate about the people I work with is that they let me do my job without standing over my shoulder. John might be working in the studio across the hall at Raphael’s Blakeslee Studios, but he won’t even come into the room when I’m mixing until I say I’m ready. That allows me the freedom to be able to get the mix where I want, and it leads to a better result.

(Below: Gerry Brown)

– Can the two of you talk about how Madame X came about?

Bernadette: In the midst of me leaving Klymaxx, I got a call from Sylvia Rhone. She asked what I intended to do next and I told her about my idea of putting together another girl group. One of the wonderful things about the old school cigar-chomping executives is that they could understand a concept. So Sylvia signed the concept of Madame X before I even formed the group. Gerry was with me when I found the girls and Corney Mims helped produce “Just That Type Of Girl“. Corney’s my guy by the way. He played on a lot of Klymaxx tracks like “Sexy“, and is a great bass player.

Gerry: I engineered “Madame X”, and was also involved in helping to find the last member of the group. Bernadette had already found the others, but we were missing a really good singer. Alisa Randolph was the last person we auditioned. After we heard her, we stepped into the hallway and were like, “That’s the one! “. Making that album was such a joy for us and it let Bernadette flex her muscles as a producer, which allowed me to just kick back and focus on engineering.

– Have there been any trademark issues with Madonna since she used “Madame X” as the title of her latest album?

Bernadette: No, because I don’t have a trademark on the name.

(Below: Album cover for “The Drama According To Bernadette Cooper”)

– Following Madame X, you released your solo album, “The Drama According To Bernadette Cooper” in 1990. How were you able to obtain a record deal for that, and how did the album perform commercially?

Bernadette: After I left Klymaxx, Louil Silas came to me and said he wanted to sign me to an artist deal, and I used that to release my solo album. The album was critically acclaimed by the public but didn’t do so well in sales for different reasons. Firstly, the record company didn’t know what to do with me. I was just a different artist to them and they ended up moving me over to the alternative music division. They were also changing label heads every few months and I remember one of them saying that he didn’t believe in videos despite the recent rise of MTV. Once Bell Biv Devoe blew up I just got lost in the shuffle of the new generation of artists. But the album received a lot of praise in Europe, and even Bette Midler opened her show with “I Look Good” from the album. Saturday Night Live is familiar with it too, so a lot of good things came out of that album, and I feel like it did what it was supposed to do.

– After your solo album, there doesn’t seem to be much Bernadette Cooper material being released in the 90s. What happened with your career during that decade?

Bernadette: Like I said, I kind of got lost in the shuffle of the new generation of music. One thing Dick Griffey taught me was to be in it but not of it. So I just started doing other things, and I also had family to take care of. I moved to New York and opened up a business, but was called back to take care of my mom, which I still do, and I’d been taking care of my grandmother prior to that, who later passed away. Then I developed a love for writing books about women, which I’m working on now, and eventually Gerry and I decided to work on “How To Survive A Midlife Crisis”. The project is kind of a secret because of the people involved, and you’re the first person we’ve talked to about it. A lot of it will be released in the UK, which is a market I’m focusing a lot on. In Europe, there’s a bigger hunger for good live music performances, and even though I’ve been touring the US for the last ten years, I want to do things a bit different with the upcoming release.

Gerry: I was talking to Raphael about this the other day. Over in Europe, they seem to get that the music is the most important thing about an artist. Audiences have a different level of appreciation there, regardless of the genre.

(Below: Bernadette Cooper)

– Thanks for talking to me guys. It’s been a long chat, but I’ll end things off with a question for each of you. Bernadette, even though you’re a longstanding artist whose legacy is assured, the average person under 30 doesn’t necessarily know much about you. So what kind of industry respect can Bernadette Cooper command in a world where music seems to be at its most disposable?

Bernadette: I do have respect, that’s for sure. Especially among my peers and sometimes even among their daughters and grand-daughters, thanks to their mothers playing them my music. I think people know me as one of the only female black producers who changed the game, and that’s enough for me. I’m not trying to make everyone love me. Hopefully my legacy will be strengthened by the upcoming album and other things like my books. So I’m just moving forward with my life and grasping onto the things I love. If someone wants to come along with me on that, that’s cool, and if not, that’s cool too.

– Gerry, as someone who’s resume is quite extensive, why have you chosen to maintain such a low media profile? With the endorsements offered up by companies like Waves and Universal Audio, as well as shows like Pensado’s Place finding success, it’s become common for engineers to attain celebrity status through a constant media presence, yet I don’t see much of that from you.

Gerry: Well, I’m now a part of a new team called The Humanz, and we’re starting to become more visual in our branding, but I’ve always looked at myself as a craftsman. It’s never been about how famous I could be, but rather how famous the music I worked on for others could be. I still get people telling me I should be doing more media, but it’s never been a focus for me. My recent talks with Waves about plugin collaborations only came about because they approached me about it. Frankly, my relationships have always been more important to me than my exposure. I’m grateful for the remarks I get from people who say that I’m a legend in what I do, but sometimes it’s like they’re trying to give me a Lifetime Achievement Award, as if I’m dead or something (laughs). I don’t dwell on it too much because I’d rather think about what my next project is going to be, and my priority is to make good records. I have enough clout in the industry that when I walk into a room, people know I’m going to do a good job, and that’s the most important part to me.